How to Open Your Heart After Hurt
Host: Dr. Gloria Horsley
With guest: Doris Jeanette
June 22, 2006

G: Hello. I?m Dr. Gloria Horsley with my co-host Dr. Heidi Horsley. Each week, we welcome you to Healing the Grieving Heart, a show of hope and renewal for those who have suffered the loss of a child or a sibling. Well, Heidi, good morning.
H: Good morning, mom.
G: Do you want to start the show today by telling our listeners about our good news?
H: Sure, I?d love to. Our listenership keeps building and thanks to all you listeners out there, the word has gotten out so as of Sunday, July 2, at 11:00 a.m. Eastern Standard Time and 10:00 a.m. Central Time, we will now be on land radio as well as the internet, and we are only starting out with a few stations, so if you would like to listen to radio, you can go to our website, www.healingthegrievingheart.org, and see if we are on in your area.
G: That?s great. So make sure you do go to our website, and you can join us on our show today by calling our toll free number, 1-866-472-5792, with questions or comments regarding the losses in your life. Heidi and I also really enjoy getting your emails and would you make sure that you give us where you?re from. Since this is internet, we love to see that listeners are from all over the world. These shows are also archived on www.thecompassionatefriends.org website as well as our website, www.healingthegrievingheart.org, and you can download them on your Ipod, and also make sure you go to our site not only to find out what land radio shows we?re on, but also the quote of the week we have on there, and also don?t forget Library of Life. And we love again getting your candles on Scott?s website in the Library of Life and remember that you can create a website for your child for only $50 for a lifetime. What a wonderful thing. So, Heidi, why don?t we start out this show by discussing the emails today. Let?s start out with our shortest email here. This is from Susan from Phoenix, Arizona, and she said:
I enjoy listening to your program every week. This is the first time I?ve written an email regarding a guest on your show. Last week?s program and guest was Lauren Littauer Briggs and it was an intense show.
Heidi, do you want to tell our listeners who weren?t on last week about what it was about?
H: Sure, I?ll briefly tell you. Lauren had two brothers born with some kind of a neurological disease and both of them were removed from the home at nine months old.
G: And they just kind of disappeared, particularly the first one.
H: Exactly. With the first brother she was seven and with the second brother she was nine.
G: And she?s an adult. I don?t know what, she?s in her fifties or something and is just dealing with it, and our email says, Susan from Phoenix, Arizona, says:
As a bereaved mother of almost fourteen years, the intensity and unresolved anger as I listened made me a little uncomfortable. I want to wish Lauren moments of gentle peace as she continues to work on her anger at the departure of the deaths of her two brothers. Thank you, Gloria and Heidi, for your excellent programming on grief and bereavement.
H: Well, thank you, Susan, I?ve got to jump in here as a bereaved sibling and say that I think that Lauren is such a great example of what happens when a sibling?s loss is unacknowledged and unrecognized. Her anger, I think, is legitimate and it?s complicated. She?s got some complicated grief because of the way that things were handled. Nobody took into account the impact that losing two siblings had on her. They just disappeared, and people said, oh, she?s young. The loss was more about her mother, her mother?s loss, and her mother?s grief, and not about her?s.
G: It?s a great show so you might want to tune in if you have some issues around that area and Lauren has some wonderful ideas and the show was called ?Helping Your Hurting Heart? and it was aired June 15, so you might want to tune in to that.
H: Absolutely, and I think for our listeners out there to remember that even if you have small children, six, seven, eight years old, or younger, you need to include them in the grief process and give them age-appropriate information and realize that it does impact a child when a sibling dies or disappears even when they?re young.
G: Heidi, we?ve got another email from Denise in Pennsylvania and she put a subject, New Family Dynamics, and we want to thank Denise. Oh, by the way, Susan, again, thanks so much for your email.
H: Thanks, Susan.
G: It?s a great email and we love you guys to comment on past shows so we can talk about it. And Denise from Pennsylvania, she says:
Gloria and Heidi, your show has been a great help to me in the four months since my son died from injuries sustained in a car crash. I was hoping for some insight into how to handle our new family dynamic. When this terrible tragedy first happened, I felt my family, my husband, myself, and our two daughters, pull together, but as time goes on, I feel that my daughters are distancing themselves. They are very close to each other but seem to want to avoid any situation where the four of us are together. I understand my son?s absence is felt most deeply when we are together. I feel that as well, but I don?t want us to grow apart. We have always been such a close family and I worry our closeness will be destroyed because it?s too painful to be together without Michael. My daughters are 18 and 15. My daughters do not talk about their brother or the situation with my husband or me. Do you have any suggestions based on your own experience?
G: Heid, I?m going to start out with what my response as a mother is.
H: Okay, very good.
G: My response as a mother is first of all, four months is such a short time. I was so crazy after four months. I was so disoriented and I didn?t realize it until later and I was fearful. I wanted my kids to be with me because I wanted to know what they were doing, and I know now that their job at 15 and 18, you guys were fairly close to that age
H: I was going to say, Heather was 14 and Rebecca was 19 and I was 20 so you had daughters around those ages.
G: Right, and I did, and the 14-year-old particularly, I was nervous whenever she went anywhere, and I think she got so tired of hearing me and looking at me and seeing how sad I was. Well, I?m not going to speak for her, Heidi, you can speak for that. But as a parent, I want to say that you have to remember, you have to hold tight with open hands. Hold tight with open hands. These kids have to do their developmental things even though it?s hard and just realize that. Take care of yourself and you?ll get through it. You?ll get through it. I did and you will.
H: I like that. And as a sibling I would like to say that I love this email because what a powerful thing to say to your teens, I don?t want us to grow apart. I know it?s painful when we?re all together without Michael, and to let them know, and also to let them know, it must be very hard to lose your brother. I don?t know what that?s like. I know what it?s like to lose my son, Michael, but not a brother, and that must be very, very difficult also. And another thing I wanted to add is that we as siblings protect our parents by not grieving in front of them because they?ve been through so much pain, and so these girls may be grieving alone or grieving with friends, grieving in private so that they don?t cause their parents any more pain, and I spoke about this. This is a very complicated topic and it could be a show and we actually did a show on this.
G: Yeah, there?s a show that you can go on to. It?s July 28. Heidi and I talk about this. It?s called ?How Can I Help Them? Adolescents Grieve, Too.?
H: And it addresses all the important things about teen grief and all the aspects and why it?s unique to other types of loss and it?s a very hard time to lose a sibling. All times are hard but that?s got its own unique challenges. And another thing I would add, and my mother knows about this because we?ve both implemented this in working with people and it?s very powerful. Family fun time where you get together as a family but you have rules and some of the rules are we don?t talk about Michael during the family fun time. We just do something fun and it?s hard to do that because you feel guilty about doing that, but when we give people homework assignments, they feel like they have to do it because it?s homework.
G: So basically, we?re giving you this homework assignment, Denise. Have some family fun time where you don?t talk about Michael and that it?s kind of set that you don?t and then have some times when you do talk about him, but make it brief.
H: Absolutely. You need that balance, you definitely need that balance.
G: And, also, Heidi and I will be doing presentations at The Compassionate Friends national conference in Dearborn, Michigan, July 14, 15, and 16, and we would love to have you come. Heidi is doing adolescent workshops and I?m doing some things on anger and loss. We?re also going to be videotaping that and we hope that we?ll get it up on the internet for you.
H: And one last thing for both emails. I think families need to come together. This needs to happen with the parents and say, look, we?re all in this together. What?s happened is awful. You?ve lost your brothers and we?ve lost our children and we?re going to get through this together because we?re here for each other and we?re a family, and we?re going to move through this grief. I know that?s easier said than done, but just to put it out there is important.
G: And don?t expect to get things back. Sometimes, as Heidi said, you put things out in the air. People say it. They hear it. They don?t need to respond. You can say, I miss Michael today. I do worry about you when you?re out, and just short little things go out in the air. They hear it.
H: That?s such an important point, mom, because a lot of times your kids are not going to respond to you, but like my mom said, we hear it and we like hearing it.
G: And if you feel like you need to recognize Michael in the home, get a little rose bud vase and put a rose in it for your son. Okay, we?re going to break now, and when we come back, we?re going to introduce our fabulous guest. I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley with my co-host, Dr. Heidi Horsley. Please stay tuned to hear more from Healing the Grieving Heart.
H: Welcome back to Healing the Grieving Heart. I?m your co-host, Dr. Heidi, with my mother and host, Dr. Gloria. Today our topic is How to Open Your Heart After Hurt and our guest is Dr. Doris Jeanette. Dr. Jeanette is a licensed psychologist and was six when her baby brother, RW, died. She had never really thought of herself as a bereaved sibling and was much more affected by the loss of relationship with her mother. Doris says, ?I did not understand anything at age six. As you can imagine, I grew up to become a psychologist who unraveled my pain and found my mother?s pain.? Doris is author of A Natural Process for Opening the Heart: Your Emotional Guide to Self-Esteem, a tape that gives suggestions and advice on how to open your heart after loss. Her method was used and highly praised by Elisabeth Kubler-Ross. Doris is a pioneer in holistic psychology and has excelled in helping humans feel better and love more. Welcome to the show, Doris.
D: Thank you, Heidi. I am pleased to be here.
G: Ah, it?s so great to have you on the show. We really appreciate it. I?ve enjoyed listening to your tapes and they?re really wonderful, and you will be able to get them, our audience. You can go to our website and they should be up there, but Doris, why don?t you tell us quickly how to get a hold of them?
D: You can get a hold of them off my website if you want to. It?s www.drjeanette.com and you go there and you will see them clearly displayed on the left-hand side because I carry my groceries on my hat like I do in sinner city Philadelphia on the cover of the tape. So you click on that because that?s what happens after you open your heart. You feel more joy.
G: That?s great. Could you tell us about your experience with your brother?
D: Yes. I was six years old. Picture a country farm, very rural lifestyle. I didn?t know it at the time, but we were actually poor. My sister and I lived in an extended family farmhouse so there?s lots of people in the farmhouse with us and my mother and I and my sister and I all slept in the same bedroom and we had a little baby brother and everybody was so happy he was born. Nine months later after our first Christmas
G: So he was in the same bedroom with you, your sister and she and
D: He was when he was born. Now nine months later, my sister and I had moved out because some aunts had gone to college or gone to school or got married or something. I can?t remember exactly what happened.
G: So you were really connected with this little baby.
D: I was connected to the little baby and everybody was happy because he was a little baby boy, and I didn?t quite understand why at the time they were so happy about him, but I was looking forward to when he would grow up and play cowboys and Indians with me. My little sister didn?t really like the outdoor activity that I loved. I was a tomboy so I was looking forward to him growing up. And nine days after Christmas, he gets sick at night, and my mother puts us to bed. He has a sick stomach which is nothing serious.
G: Now how old is he?
D: He?s nine months old. He gets a sick stomach. My mother puts my sister and I to bed and we wake up the next morning and my mother has gone with my father to take him to the doctor. And that?s the first thing that I notice is strange. So I take a long bus ride into town to go to school and I?m nervous immediately as soon as my mother?s not there so I know something is not right and something?s wrong. I get to school, start school, and everything seems fine. I start to relax a little and then in comes our preacher. It was country farm, country environment. My preacher who, I didn?t know if anybody else had him as a preacher, but my preacher came in to talk to the school teacher and took me out of the class and I got really scared. So I got really anxious and tense and he took me to the hospital. When he got to the hospital, it was really weird for me because I?d never been in a hospital before. I wasn?t even born in a hospital. I was born on a farm and so I?m like a nervous wreck. My heart is racing. My heart is pounding. It just smells bad and I?m really freaking out already before I even know what?s going on just because everything is so strange and weird and I?m away from my mom. He takes me to the room where my mother is and she?s all the way across the room and she reaches her arms out to me and I run to her and she squeezes me tight and she says, ?RW is dead. RW is dead.? And my whole world froze, and I could feel my mother?s pain. You see, my mother?s pain went right through me. And the whole world stopped and the whole world froze at that moment.
G: And how did your family deal with it after that, all through it in a short capsule because we want to get on to your
D: Not in a very good way, okay, because they went into what I would probably call coping mechanisms that did not resolve what had happened.
G: Heidi, why don?t you take the sibling thing on this?
H: I guess I would want to ask you probably the same thing Gloria was going to ask you, did they acknowledge your loss as well?
D: Not at all. And my mother, I talked to her briefly about doing this show, and she said, we talked about it, we?ve resolved all the issues that were involved with it, but she said she had no idea that I was affected at all, and I didn?t really let her know. And I didn?t even know myself, okay, because see I didn?t know I was affected that much by it either. All I knew as a child who?s six is that I lost my mother.
H: Right. You lost a mother you once knew. It was a double loss for you.
D: It was. And what I lost, and my mother became depressed and started to get migraine headaches, but emotionally, see she was present there crying but after that, I don?t remember her crying and I don?t remember, no one talked to me or said anything to me at all. It gets even worse in terms of what I thought as a child. I overheard adults saying to me it was spinal meningitis, that?s the reason it happened so fast and so quickly. It was spinal meningitis, and I heard adults saying that I could have brought the germ home from school.
H: You already had magical thinking at that age but to overhear that on top of it, it?s horrible.
G: Yeah, the magical thinking is so powerful.
D: And you misinterpret it. You don?t have a clue. So I became very fearful. So I lost my relationship with my mother, which was my lifeline because she was depressed. She was still there but emotionally she wasn?t there, and then I got all concerned about germs and how they got into the spinal cord and how they went to the brain, and how all this happened.
H: And then you thought you were responsible in some way for bringing this into the family.
D: I could have been. I knew it wasn?t a for sure but all my life I was afraid of hurting somebody.
G: And what have you done with that? What do you feel about that now? Just for our audience that are feeling that way that they have done something. How have you dealt with that?
D: Well, that?s what my whole life has been dedicated to, unraveling that and making discoveries, such fascinating, interesting discoveries along the way. One of the earlier things that I noticed. I always hated the smell of carnations. Now I just thought that I hated the smell of carnations and every other flower I love. When I first started into therapy and started to unravel, go into my unconscious and find out why I felt not happy and satisfied no matter what I did, that sort of thing, I had a doctorate degree and I had a successful practice, and all the money I wanted in the world.
H: I was going to ask you if you ended up being the good girl. It sounds like you did.
D: Oh, I did, and exactly what you said, Heidi. I was so concerned of hurting my mother any more. I did not ever have any problem. I never needed anything. I became really quiet and didn?t ever want to bother her because I thought I had done something in relationship to her, too.
G: I assume the carnations were a funeral flower. We?re going to have to go to break, so I wanted to get to that. Heidi and I hate formaldehyde, right, Heidi?
H: Oh, yes, and new shower curtains.
G: Because Scott was burned and the formaldehyde leaked, to put it bluntly, so that?s a smell that we all acknowledge hating. So I know our audience has a lot of smells that remind us in good ways and in bad ways. There are some wonderful good smells, too. It?s time for us to come up on break now. Before we get started again, Doris, could you give your website again to the folks?
D: Yes. It?s www.drjeanette.com.
G: Great, so go on that and take a look at her tapes. They?re wonderful and you?ll be able to pick them up. Well, when we went to break, we were talking to Doris about her brother, RW, who died at nine months of meningitis, and Doris at the time was six, and as she told her story, Heidi and were saying during the break that we were so moved by the fact that when you go to that story and you go to that place, that there?s still the emotion there and the connection and we really appreciate Doris telling her story for us.
D: That?s one of the things I want everyone who?s listening to know is that place where you actually cry, where you actually feel your heart in action, so to speak, is the place where all of us can come together as human beings. I don?t know about Heidi and Gloria, but that?s the place, when I was able to reach that place inside myself, is where I began to really touch my clients, and touch them in their own pain through, it always feels to me like I go to that place and in that place is where I live to touch them, to touch another human being, in their pain, no matter what their pain may be. I go through my own pain in order to empathize, to care, to love, and almost it?s sort of like being touched in that spot is what heals us.
G: That?s a wonderful thing you?re talking about right now and that brings me to something you said on your tape, and I know a lot of our audience has reached out. These are newly bereaved people, and you?re talking about how you go to that place to help others and our folks that we?re talking to now, a lot of them are people who need to be helped and you talk a little bit on your tape about needing teachers and guides.
D: Yes, and what we need is what I think Gloria and Heidi are providing. We need a place that with open arms welcomes your emotions and all of your feelings as if they were normal, as if they?re healthy, as if they?re healing because that?s what they are.
G: Absolutely, and they are normal, we want to tell you out there. Compassionate Friends, those groups and other groups that you can find, are places where you can go and find a safe place to be heart to heart and you?ll find people there who are bereaved longer than you are who will hold your hand on the journey, too.
D: And we just need a hug. We just need that little emotional physical hug and a touch that you?re okay, it hurts, it?s okay that it hurts, it?s powerful that it hurts because it?s putting you in touch with the rawness of life, the depth of life, the richness of life.
G: Now for those folks who are really newly bereaved, though, Doris, they need a little break from that.
H: That?s what I was thinking. I was fairly walled off from my feelings at the beginning because I was afraid to go down that road and get too in touch. I was afraid I would become overwhelmed.
D: Well, it is overwhelming and I know what you?re talking about is you don?t want to push it or pull it. What you want to do is allow it to happen in a natural organic fashion and you need to have comic relief at all times.
G: Right, and just rest, too. For awhile early on, I don?t think I laughed for at least three months. I remember laughing. I opened the New York Times and my husband?s picture was in there and we were all so devastated. Why wouldn?t he tell me he was going to have his picture in the New York Times? I opened it up and I started to laugh and I remember specifically what a tinkle. It was like a tinkle, my own laughter, a surprise, but it was three months.
D: One of the things, Gloria and Heidi, you may agree or disagree with me about this, but what people need right now is just permission to feel and to be
G: And then not think they?re crazy.
D: Exactly, and the natural process will unfold if they don?t try to control. You don?t try to control by self-judgments, by blame, by guilt, or by feeling pity. The natural process flows. We were made perfectly to heal.
G: Over time, yeah. I think some of our audience out there I?m sure are feeling like I just can?t go through that. I remember thinking why would God let this happen to me? How could a human being suffer this much and live? And I thought why would Scott want to do this to me? Why would God want to do it to me? I don?t know. Were you thinking any of those thoughts, Heid?
H: Well, I was thinking absolutely thinking that and I was also judging my day. I?m grieving wrong, I?m not doing enough, I?m in too much pain, will this be my life forever? Will I be completely feeling like this forever? And, yes, I definitely felt why, how could this have happened, and why did it happen. What did I do to deserve this?
D: Absolutely. I felt the same way. I blamed myself for years.
G: Yeah, because you brought the disease home.
D: Exactly. I blamed myself for years for his death and I blamed myself for the loss of relationship with my mother as well.
H: And that kind of speaks to us to how important it is for parents to let their kids know, look, I?m grieving. I?m in a lot of pain. I?m depressed, but it?s not about you. When you?re little, you think everything is about you. I did something wrong. I was a bad kid. My mom?s depressed. And you hear parents sometimes saying I don?t want to go on. It?s too much, and then you?re thinking, well, I?m still here.
G: Right. We were just talking, Doris, on the show last week about Father?s Day, and Heidi made such a good point because I was saying it?s such a difficult time for parents and all that. Heidi, you said
H: That we need to remember the siblings and that we need to do some of these activities and these events. We want to honor our fathers.
G: Their father was alive, they?re alive.
H: And I?m kind of feeling sad for the little girl that you were feeling like carrying this burden, that feeling that you brought this disease into the home.
D: Yes. And what happened, okay, what literally did happen in my life after about three months or four months, my mother hurt my feelings in a situation. She was a very kind and loving mother usually and she was harsh with me.
G: You know what, we?re so crazy. I was so crazy.
D: I know exactly. But, you see, I didn?t know that.
G: Absolutely. We are so nuts.
D: I know and it?s normal. I understand, but she hurt my feelings.
G: But it?s not normal to a child to have a crazy mother.
D: Well, I know what you?re saying. It?s both sides. You can see both sides of everything, right, and mothers aren?t perfect and certainly grieving mothers aren?t perfect and there?s no way they can be, but as a child, what I did at that point was I closed my heart. That?s when I closed my heart. So it wasn?t the death that made me close my heart, it?s when my mother hurt my feelings, I closed my heart, and I said I will never let anybody else know how I feel ever again. And I did this as a conscious decision. I said I?m never going to let anybody know I care about things that much any more.
G: I did the same thing with my mother when my grandmother died. It was really interesting, yeah. I was older. I was fourteen, and I don?t think I really had the same relationship with my mother again because I wanted to see my grandmother at the hospital and she wouldn?t take me, and she said wait until she gets out. Yeah, kids do that. When we come back, let?s talk about, to our audience, if they?ve got a child, if they?ve had a loss, and how we can help them deal with their child and the kinds of things that we can say to them.
H: And how Doris opened her heart again.
G: Yes, absolutely, and we want to know how you opened your heart again and for our audience. Doris, before we get started, could you give our audience your website again?
D: Yes, my website is www.drjeanette.com.
G: Great, thank you, and the tapes are great and I think you?re going to enjoy them. When we went to break, we were talking about Doris? experiences of inner childhood with her brother, RW, dying at nine months of meningitis, and this is our last break, and we just need to fit in talking about what Doris could have benefited from from all the audience out there if you?ve got younger children and have had a death in the family, what Doris would have liked from her mother, and then I want her to move on to how she opened her heart.
D: What I would have liked, and I think what all people and children need, is the intimacy. It?s just what we?re doing right here. It?s be close to each other, not holding on or the fear part that was talked about earlier during the email exchange. What you want to do is share your pain and grief with your child. I would have loved it if my mother had included me in what was happening inside of her so that I knew that she was missing RW, that that was affecting her, and that she was blaming ? I would like to have even known she was blaming herself and I would have liked for her to talk to me about that because that would have helped my magical thinking. That would have helped my misinterpretations. It would have helped me know that my mother?s upset. I don?t have anything to do with it. I?m doing the best I can and she?s doing the best she can, and we?re getting through this together, man.
G: Yes, I think that?s great. Now I don?t want to lose this piece and that?s to say to the audience, it?s never too late. How many years has it been, Doris?
D: Well, it?s been 50 some years.
G: Do you hear that? Fifty years? It?s never too late. We?re always working through these experiences.
H: And through our relationships.
D: And it is worth it because what?s happening when you open your heart is you?re opening up for more pleasurable experiences in loving, in your relationships, and just in those moments of being alive when you can laugh and you can enjoy the moment of being alive and smelling the roses.
H: And you can let new people into your heart.
D: Absolutely. And that is the motivation for opening your heart and that is where I realized my heart was closed.
G: Okay now let me say, you closed your heart at age what?
D: About six and a half.
G: When was the first ? it?s literally, we say that to ourselves ? when was the first time you knew you wanted to open your heart again, that you knew you needed to approach it?
D: I met a man and I wanted to let him in. A man who was sensitive, who was deep because he wasn?t superficial and surface. A man who had some depth to him and shared that depth and I wanted to let my heart open so I could love him.
G: And what did you do? What was your first step? Your first step was a thought and then
D: And then I struggled within myself to open it enough to let him in. And I did let him in. We did get married and what happened after that is that our relationship ended on pleasant positive grounds and I grieved that.
G: Ah, so you grieved your first complete grief since RW?
D: Well, yes, I grieved. David and I both ended up coming out as gay people. So we grieved losing each other because we loved each other. So that was my first full grief was losing David but I was losing him because I was being true to myself.
G: Right. So now tell our audience if they are feeling. After, I think there?s a certain point. I don?t know your thought, Heidi, but there?s a certain point that you have to go through telling your story to kind of get it straight and these are pretty horrendous stories we have out there. So I think you need to find places to tell your story in the beginning would you say, Heid?
H: Absolutely, and I think you definitely need to find people that can hear it and not interrupt your grief process. You need to tell your story in many different ways. And if people have heard it before, they need to realize that you need to keep telling it in different ways.
G: Right. And so you tell your story and in the process over time, and it can be quite a bit of time. Recently someone said you have to tell your complete story at least twenty-five times, at least.
H: You keep working it through and you keep realizing, this is real. This happened to me. You?re working it through constantly.
D: I would make a suggestion about writing. I find writing to be a very powerful way to reach these inner depths that we?re talking about is to write your story and to write it from different points of view perhaps. But writing is a very powerful healing tool for the heart and for self-improvement.
H: I like that. You could have even written a letter to your mom. You wouldn?t have necessarily had to send it, but you could have even written it as a six-year-old.
D: Well, I didn?t have the cognition to do that at six.
H: I mean today.
G: She has written it. She wrote a book.
H: Oh, okay. Well, there you go.
D: Yes, I wrote a book from the six-year-old point of view. I wrote a book. It?s never been published, but I wrote a book from a six-year-old point of view.
G: You know, Doris, I hate to say it, but it?s time to close our show now. It has been absolutely fabulous having you on.
D: Thank you very much.
H: It has, we?ve really enjoyed it.
G: Really enjoyed it. And go to her website. Give us your website again.
D: It?s www.drjeanette.com.
G: And she has some great tapes there that you can take a look at and one of them is Healing After Loss. Isn?t one of them called that, Doris?
D: Yes.
G: Anyway, please stay tuned next week for the show, and thanks for coming on, at 9:00 Pacific Standard Time, 12:00 Eastern, for more of Healing the Grieving Heart. On the show, we are going to have Lauren and Kerri Kiefer, sisters of Michael Vernon Kiefer, firefighter who died at the age of twenty-five, September 11th, World Trade Center attacks. Michael was the big brother everybody wanted. He was dedicated and motivated. Please stay tuned for a really heartfelt show. This show is archived on our website www.healingthegrievingheart.org. I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley, with my co-host
H: Dr. Heidi Horsley. Thank you and we?ll see you next week.

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